"Daniel, have you read George MacDonald's views about hell? I confess that I don't completely understand his theology, but his view seems to be that hell is a temporary state (not literal burning, btw) for the betterment of the individual to bring them to a place of reconciliation. In other words, he views it (if I understand correctly) not as a place of punishment, but a place of growth that is as much an expression of God's love as heaven. I'm interested in hearing more about your views on hell as well, as this is something I have struggled with for a long time."I have to be careful exactly how I phrase my response, since this unfortunately seems to be some kind of political issue. Very briefly let me just say the following. I'm not up-to-date on my MacDonald, but I have encountered views of 'hell' as refinement. In fact, one of my favorite Christian bloggers (Richard Beck) seems to hold something like this view ('hell' is a place of rehabilitative justice were God's love always wins out--eventually everyone will be made fit for heaven). Personally I think this is a very appealing view for theological reasons, and it makes sense of the biblical truth that 'heaven is an acquired taste'. However, I honestly cannot find it anywhere in Scripture. It is consequently my view that people who believe this need to admit that theirs is a synthetic, post-biblical construction (which may or may not be a bad thing depending on your other theological commitments).
My own view on the subject is (and hopefully it isn't too presumptuous to say this) more closely tied to the biblical text. Heaven is not a post-mortem destination for eternal souls, but is rather the metaphorical abode of God. While there is biblical reference to being 'with Christ' after death, it seems to me to be somewhat of an afterthought. The more positive emphasis is on resurrection and new creation. As NT Wright continues to affirm, the hope of Christians is not disembodied bliss in 'heaven', but rather embodied bliss on the (re)new(ed) earth (which I guess could also be described as the new heavens, since "God's dwelling is with humankind"--the present 'veil' between heaven and earth is done away with).
So much for 'heaven'. What about 'hell'? Well, as many (e.g. McLaren, Perriman) have pointed out, 'hell' is a post-biblical construct. What we get in Scripture is an amalgamation of references to Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna. Sheol (in the OT) and Hades (in the NT) seem to be roughly equivalent as 'the place of the dead', and the biblical writers seem to alternate between imagining it as a place of ethereal existence (which would include both a place of torment and a place of rest) and as a metaphor for non-existence. The point being that developing a theology of the 'afterlife' isn't a pressing concern for the biblical writers. Gehenna, as both NT Wright and Andrew Perriman argue, seems to basically be an apocalyptic spin on anticipated historical destruction (see, for example, Mark 13, where the entire point is that Jerusalem will be destroyed, and the disciples are to run from the city when they see the 'signs of the times'). It is an image for God's judgment of rebellious nations (and usually, in the mouth of Jesus, of rebellious Israel). The point is that, by and large, this judgment isn't post-mortem, but rather pre-mortem--and resulting in plain ol' mortem. Israel is destroyed, annihilated, trampled on by Roman armies. Jerusalem is overrun by pagans. Israel's faithlessness is punished, while the new Israel of God (the Church) is vindicated. This is the biblical thrust of so-called 'hell' imagery, in the Gospels least.
For those of us who have been taught to think in terms of non-physical souls (a more Greek than Jewish notion after all--though of course there is some overlap), we immediately think 'oh no! but then, what about what happens to me after I die?' This is of course a valid question, but my point is simply that it is not a question the biblical text sets out to address. So then we must clearly distinguish what Scripture says on the one hand, and what we imagine is a good answer to this non-biblical question on the other.
I personally don't believe in the existence of a post-mortem torture chamber for non-Christians. The problem of course is that if I say "I don't believe in hell," people will misunderstand me as saying that I simply am disregarding all the NT says about judgment, wrath and destruction. But my claim is the exact opposite: belief in the modern notion of hell, rather than my disbelief of it, is what constitutes ignoring the biblical data.
Now, with all these qualifications out of the way, do I have an answer to the 'what happens after we die?' question? Yes and no. I have hunches and intuitions. More importantly I have trust in the goodness, fairness, and justice of God. We will all have to face the Lord Jesus Christ, judge of the living and the dead. As a physicalist however (one who doesn't think human 'souls' are by nature eternal), I'm comfortable with the idea that when we die, we simply are dead (viz. we don't 'go' anywhere). In that case, 'judgment' takes place at the general resurrection, when God makes all things new. I imagine that if our mental pictures are correct and that God has in fact decided to finally bring this epic to a close, then everything which has no place in the new creation will be discarded. Perhaps everything and everyone will be to a certain extent salvageable, perhaps (more realistically?) not. God is the judge. I am not.
But the point is that Christians claim to know what God looks like: Jesus. For this reason, if we truly believe that some day all of us will have to face up to how we have lived in light of the Creator's decrees, we will be moved first to be conformed to the image of the Son, and second to encourage others to 'repent', to change, to pledge allegiance to God (rather than to this or that cause, or this or that nation), and to join his Kingdom revolution.
This is the hope of the world. God will renew all things. But even better: God has already begun to renew all things--and we're invited in on the process.
Nora, does this help?
Peace,
-Daniel-
6 comments:
Wow! I got an entire post devoted to answering my question! I am so honored. :)
It does help, but it does raise (of course) even more questions. First, your view of heaven reminds me of Randy Alcorn's views in his aptly-named book "Heaven." Alcorn believes that when we die, we do, in fact, go to a nonphysical place where we are with the Lord. This first heaven lasts until the resurrection of the dead and the making of the new heaven and new earth, at which point the real fun begins. You seem to differ in that you believe that there is no staging area, no Heaven #1, so to speak. We are "asleep" as Paul says, until we receive our resurrected bodies. Am I correct?
You are absolutely right about MacDonald's views on Hell being a post-biblical construct. (Although, some may point to the rather obscure 1 Peter 3:18-20 as evidence that residency in Hell may not be permanent). Most of the NT references to Hell are prophecies concerning Jerusalem -- but what do you do with Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus? Torment seems to be occurring there, for sure.
My personal intuitions on this matter are in fact a minority viewpoint. I would even concede that the apostle Paul had differing intuitions (he does seem to believe in some sort of intermediate state--though notice this is merely an assumption, and that not much hangs on it) from my own.
What did you think of Alcorn's book? I've been tempted to pick it up more than once, but I'm wary of the man's theology as it is, and I don't want to make myself like him less... if you know what I mean.
The short answer to your question about the Lazarus parable is "I don't know." Shane Claiborne and Brian McLaren have offered alternative interpretations which hinge on the observation that Jesus is using a typical Pharisee metaphysic against its proponents (because of their treatment of the poor and downtrodden). It's sort of a reversal. I find this view appealing, but I don't know how biblically grounded it is. I'd have to study more.
To come perfectly clean (while hoping that I don't get in too much trouble), I have to confess that I also reject the idea of a 'locked from the outside' post-mortem torture chamber problematic for philosophical reasons. How could a just God torture someone forever? The traditional reply that our definition of 'justice' needs an adjustment scares me. If I can't assume that I know what I'm saying when I attribute goodness or justice to God, then maybe God is a despot and a tyrant!
So in other words, I believe too deeply in God's impartiality (a biblical belief), justice (a biblical belief) and mercy (a biblical belief) to give assent to (at least traditional construals of) the idea of 'hell' (a semi-biblical belief).
Additionally, the fact that the rich man in the parable is not in 'gehenna' is significant, since most of the other warnings about destruction and judgment in the NT ARE about gehenna (they don't seem to be the same thing--contra traditional evangelicalism).
Am I making sense?
Thanks again for the feedback.
Peace,
-Daniel-
(PS: John says some things about torment in Revelation which have a pretty vindictive edge to them as well--and I'm not sure what to make of those either. They seem inconsistent with the Lord's commandment to pray for and bless our enemies...)
On Alcorn's book, it was kind of boring and repetitive, so, admittedly, I did not finish it. What he does a great job of, however, is pointing out the importance of the new Heaven and new Earth, not to mention the resurrection of the saints. Traditional views have seemed to look past that, and some don't even seem to believe that we will have actual fleshly bodies, which he rightly points out is really a Gnostic viewpoint, not a Christian one.
As far as Hell goes, I am with you on that one. I truly don't agree with eternal fiery torment -- I mean, come on, is that really justice? If it takes an eternity to justly punish someone for wrongdoing, does that also imply that it will take an eternity to heal someone from the wrongs done to them? I can't believe that either is true. But to be fully intellectually honest, I have to admit that I have opposing thoughts about Hell taking up equal space in my brain, none of which can be fully based in the Bible. So what do you tell your unbelieving friends if they ask you this question? And many nonChristians do think that Hell is as unjust as we do!
On one thing I am certain, however, if someone comes to Christ for "fire insurance" alone, their understanding of following Christ is shallow and short-changed really. Not that you can't grow past this; many do, but I really hate the idea of someone being "scared" into the Kingdom.
Good thoughts Nora. Scaring people into the Kingdom seems kind of counterproductive right? Teach people to be loving and self-sacrifical through fear? Say what? At most you could get behavioral change... but inner transformation? No.
And this is a crucial point: if you really believe that God tortures people after they die forever and ever... that does something to your image of God (again, this is probably why CS Lewis envisions a 'hell' locked from the inside, rather than the outside).
As far as what I tell nonChristians who ask me about this... I just tell them I think 'hell' is a post-biblical construct. I try to get rid of the metaphysical baggage while highlighting the central truth that we all have to face God--a God who loves us, and who has called us to repentance, to change, in light of the work of his Son.
Thanks for the chat.
Cheers,
-Daniel-
Daniel, still the same old didactic style that I LOVE with the amalgamation of scripture references and dry French/American wit. oh how I miss you, bloody well done by the way I enjoyed the experience completely...
my grade: satisfied!
j
Well, I thought I better catch on to your blogging so I can say that I "knew him when..." and before you become the next N.T. Wright :)
I love hearing you process things. We come at things so differently but often arrive at the same point.
My two cents on these things are that when we die we pass into another dimension. Somehow, it's around us and that's why many, many people feel a connection to those that have departed. When Jesus returns to renew the earth this dimension will overtake what we now perceive as reality.
As for hell...infinite punishment for finite sin seems odd to me. Annihilation has always appealed to me, although for those in heaven won't you be eternally missing that person? It seems just one step up from eternal punishment.
And what to tell your friends...I tell them that God doesn't send people there. That's not his will or desire. Hell is the option for those who reject an eternity with God. Now, what that looks like...if it looks at all...I can't say and I think that ignorance is intentional on God's part. But ultimately, as you said Daniel, God is just. I'm confident he'll do the right thing and no one will point an accusatory finger.
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